Joe Giovannoli  

You’re listening to the Tip of the Law podcast where legal insights meet practical advice. In each episode, we bring you stories, insights, and tips straight from the legal industry’s brightest minds. I’m your host, Joe Giovannoli, founder and CEO of 9Sail. And joining me today is Elise Holtzman, former practicing attorney, founder of the Lawyer’s Edge and the Ignite Women’s Business Development Accelerator, and host of the Lawyer’s Edge podcast. Elise is one of the LMA’s go-to business development experts. Without further ado, let’s get to it. Elise, thanks for joining me today.

Elise Holtzman  

Thanks so much for having me, Joe. I’m excited to be here.

Joe Giovannoli  

I’m excited for you to be here. And I’m excited for this conversation. So you know how this works. We talked in advance and you know, we’ve talked about plenty of podcast things over the years, and I finally stood my own up. But we want to get to know you a little bit and I love to break the ice and let our listeners get to know you a little bit better. Tell us one interesting fact about yourself that people may not know.

Elise Holtzman  

My husband is also an attorney. So we were both– I was a big law lawyer. He’s a big law lawyer. And the way we met was that we were cast together in a law school show, in the Law School show to sing a love song. So you know, my kids think it’s nauseating. But yeah, that’s how we met. You know, I was actually a third year law student, he was a first year law student. The director of the show who was a student in my class said to me, “Elise, you’re going to be singing this love song with Rob.” I said, “Who’s Rob” and she pointed to him. And that’s my husband for the last 32 years. 

Joe Giovannoli  

That’s awesome. You get people who would say Oh, we met in elementary school, high school, we met online,we met whatever, that one– that’s a new one.

Elise Holtzman  

Yeah, that’s slightly different. That’s awesome.

Joe Giovannoli  

I guess you did meet in school. But that’s so awesome. 

Elise Holtzman  

We did, yeah. If not for the show, we probably would never have crossed paths because we were in different classes. So I, yeah, so that’s, uh, that’s fine. We both spent our, you know, our school years acting and singing and doing all of those sorts of things. So. So that was a fun way to meet. And I actually just started dating another guy, I had gone on a few dates with this other guy. And then, you know, my husband came along, and I got rid of that guy and moved on.

Joe Giovannoli  

That’s awesome. That’s so cool. So I’ve known you for a better part of a decade now. And I did not know that. So that is, that really is a cool, interesting fact. But what made you– so you, obviously you’re a former practicing attorney, what made you get into legal? What took you down that path?

Elise Holtzman  

It’s funny, Joe, because that actually goes back to before law school, right? So I wound up going to law school. And now I do what I do now, which is different from practicing law, obviously. But when I first went to college, I was pre med. And in fact, I was pre med almost the entire time I was in college. I like to say I wasn’t intelligent enough, apparently, to realize that that wasn’t going to be the right path. For me, it took me a long time to get the memo. But you know, the way I grew up, the family I grew up in, I was taught that, you know, to be successful your education was the most important thing. And you had to have a profession, because my parents had always worked for a company or school system, they really wanted us to be able to hang out on our own shingle if push came to shove. And I have a sister, you know, there are no boys in my family. And so it was like, “We want you to be able to be independent. And you know, if you find somebody to marry, great, but we want you to be able to take care of yourselves.” And so in my mind, that was pretty much lawyer or doctor, and doctor was what appealed to me. So I wound up at the end, after taking organic chemistry and basically wanting to, you know, poke needles in my eyeballs, I finally decided that that wasn’t going to be a good fit for me. And I started looking around and doing some research and being precocious and doing interviews, informational interviews, and all that sort of thing. And I did come to the conclusion that the things that I am good at, and the things that I like, kind of intersect in something that looks like the law. 

And so I did obviously go to law school. I practiced law in two big law firms in New York City doing commercial real estate transactions, which I absolutely loved. You know, some people look at me like commercial real estate, Gee, that sounds fascinating, but I absolutely loved it. And I love doing deals. I love negotiating. I just loved everything about it. I love that there was something concrete about it, right? I could drive by a building or a shopping center or some kind of development and see that I had had my hand in it. And then at some point, practicing law just became kind of untenable, right? So this was quite some time ago where there were really no women partners, or if there were there were very few, and they really were having enough of a hard time that they weren’t really reaching a hand down to the women coming behind them. I didn’t have lawyers in my family. There was no such thing as a Women’s Initiative, there was no such thing as a Women’s Bar Association. I really didn’t have– I had sponsors and mentors, they were men. They were wonderful. But they had, they were men with stay at home wives. And so I didn’t feel like I had anybody that I could talk to about the situation. And so there, there I am practicing big law, my husband’s practicing big law. And I wound up having our daughter, our oldest, who is extremely old at this point. So this is a very long time ago. But I asked about part time, and you know, this was big law, they weren’t doing it, they didn’t believe that you could do anything from home. And so they said, “We like you, we’ll try it with you.” And so I did, I was supposed to be working 40 hours a week for 80% of my salary. And I wound up working more like 60-70 hours a week for 80% of my salary, because I was the most senior associate in the practice group at the time, and I was running hundreds of millions of dollars of deals. At that point, I threw my hands up in the air. And I said, I’ve tried this thing, it doesn’t work. 

And then the next thing I knew I was living in the suburbs, I was home with kids. You know, one turned into two, two turned into three. And when it was time to go back to work, I kind of looked around, and I thought well, I’m never gonna let a law firm on me again, right? As much as I love the practice of law. And again, you know, didn’t mean I was right. But that was kind of what I was thinking. And I found out about leadership coaching and executive coaching. So I took a full year certificate program, a training program in that, and I got certified as a coach, and I started the Lawyer’s Edge. And so for the past 15 years, I’ve been working exclusively with lawyers and law firms to help them grow thriving practices. And I guess it’s my third career, right? Because the first one was law, the second one was being a stay at home mom. And the third one is this. I’ve loved all three of them. I think the hardest one was staying home with my kids, honestly. But that’s kind of how I came to be doing what I’m doing.

Joe Giovannoli  

That’s amazing. And so you said a few things. First of all, you are probably one of the most intelligent people I know. So wow, when you made the comment about, oh, wasn’t smart enough to be in med school? No, your calling was in another area. 

Elise Holtzman

That’s very kind, thank you. 

Joe Giovannoli

I’m gonna set the record straight for everybody listening right now. But you know, so I want to go into this a little bit, because you talked about not having, you know, I’m putting words in your mouth, but what I heard is that you didn’t have mentors that could really relate to what you were going through, right? You had great people that were willing to teach you law and work with you in that regard. But from an emotional standpoint, they really couldn’t grasp what you were going through and how could they they’re there. They’re not dealing with the same things. Right. So like, how did you navigate that? Were you ever able to find, you know, a mentor or a colleague that could relate to what you were going through while you were actually practicing? 

Elise Holtzman  

No, I never did. I mean, there were other women out there who were going through similar things. You know, a lot of us opted out of the law. And it’s unfortunate, right? I think a lot of us really enjoyed it. I know I did. I think a lot of us were really good at what we did. And so I think it was a loss, not just for the women themselves, but for the legal community that has changed a lot. It hasn’t changed enough, right. I think that there’s a reality of, and it’s not, it’s not just about children, right? Not every woman chooses to have a child or is able to have a child or whatever. But in my experience as a mom, that was a shared experience among a lot of women. But I didn’t know anybody who was senior to me, who was doing it. And the women I knew who were senior to me, who were lawyers who had children, a lot of them had opted out– actually my headhunter, the one that a woman who had moved me from one big law firm, where I billed 2600 hours a year, and I loved it there. But I just thought it was insane. And I needed to get a life. When she moved me to the– she moved me to the other firm. She was in a similar boat, she was aware, she had practiced law, she had loved it, but she had run into the same thing. So the women that I knew, many of them had opted out. And so the men that I think about who were my mentors, there were two people in particular, who are at my first law firm who I’m eternally grateful for, who I think made me as sharp a lawyer as I was capable of being were absolutely fabulous. But they, you know, they made a lot of money, they made a lot of rain, they had stay at home wives who were fabulous and knocked themselves out to support their husbands and support their families. And so no, I mean, the answer to that is really no, unfortunately. 

Joe Giovannoli  

And it’s such a shame. And we’re going to, I want to get into it in a couple of minutes here. But it, I tip my hat to you because you’ve solved that problem, which is so great. And again, we’ll talk about that in just a minute. But you’ve solved that problem for the future of the legal industry, right? Like you have created a program that makes sure that nobody ever feels like that again, especially a woman in the legal industry. Nobody feels like that, again, like you’ve created that mentorship, which I think is great. 

Elise Holtzman  

And I want to do something that I’m passionate about and– listen, I mean, I have created those things in my practice, there are a lot of resources out there now for women that didn’t exist before. And obviously, not all of them are going to be the perfect fit for every woman. But there’s so many to choose from these days, that I’m just delighted that that stuff is out there. Now I see a lot of, you know, I see a lot of mentorship by women of other women. And I think it’s really important. 

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, but one thing that most of them can’t offer is the unique perspective that you’ve infused into your program, which is that, “hey, I played this game, I was part of the rat race, I was, I was a practicing attorney. I’ve done the gamut of this stuff. And, and so I can give you the perspective of somebody that understands how rainmakers work. But I can also give you the perspective and the emotional support of somebody that has gone through the 2600-hour, week, or year.” So I think that you bring a great perspective that we’ll talk about in just a minute. But that kind of leads me into why you’ve been so successful at what you do. I believe everybody has a superpower, right? And everybody’s superpower, if we put a bunch of superpowers together, you create something pretty awesome. But can you tell everybody what you feel your superpower is?

Elise Holtzman  

I learned pretty early on that my superpower is execution. It’s getting stuff done. It’s making things happen, you know, checking off the boxes, and not just talking about doing something but doing it. Yeah. And so, you know, I don’t know, I think that’s– I know that’s my superpower. For me, I don’t know how it stacks up against other people’s superpowers, you know, there are some great ones out there. But for me, it’s enabled me to make some decisions about what I want to do and execute on them, and be willing to fail, which God knows, you know, I have as have all of us, but that’s something that I feel like, I’m one of these people that I always say I’m not gonna I’m not gonna write you a song, I’m not gonna paint you a picture. I’m not creative in that way. But I’m a creative problem solver. And when something needs to get driven over the finish line I’m the girl you want on your team.

Joe Giovannoli  

Yes, well, and I have, I’ve experienced that firsthand. You’ve, you’ve sat on, agreed to sit on a board that I was running, and I’m still so grateful that you did that. But you are a unique breed of entrepreneur. Because most entrepreneurs are visionaries. And one of their areas that they struggle in is execution. And I know at least I could speak on that for myself. I’m a really, I’m a big ideas guy. And I can, you know, think through the pieces. But getting into the minutiae of, you know, sitting down and getting certain things done, I struggle to get my mental block past it. You don’t like, there’s just no mental walk, you just sit down, you say, “You know what, embrace the suck, I got to do this, I’m going to do it.” So again, like, I just agree your superpower is absolutely execution. I knew that from the day that I met you. And I guess what I’m curious about is, how do you parlay that into– let’s talk about the Ignite program as a whole right now, how do you parlay that into helping the women in your Ignite or Accelerator program to execute and to be successful in business development?

Elise Holtzman  

What’s interesting to me is that many lawyers are actually really good at execution. Once they make up their mind to do something, they’re kind of naturally wired in that direction. And so you know, this show that I’m, I’m master certified in a set of personality tools called TypeCoach. And if somebody had told me that I would be using personality tools when I was a lawyer, I would have told them they were smoking something, because I’m just as skeptical as an ex lawyer, right? Lawyers are like, you know, a little eye rolling, when it comes to that sort of thing. I have found this stuff to be incredibly powerful. And so when I did my own personality type and saw that it almost said in big red letters, you are an executor. I was like, Uh, yes. And I am in fact, many lawyers show up similarly. And so we tend to like structure, we tend to think in boxes, we tend to like, listen, check things off, we are, we are the people that do drive things across the finish line. Most lawyers are not the big picture visionaries. And by the way, it doesn’t mean that you can’t get into the details. And it doesn’t mean I can’t be a big picture visionary, right? It’s just how you kind of naturally show up and what’s most energizing for you and what you feel like you’re the best at. Sort of like if you’re right handed, writing with your right hand is super easy and comfortable, writing with your left hand not so much. You can do it, it’s just not going to be as pretty or as easy. 

So knowing that about lawyers, enabled me to think through how am I going to be most valuable to them. They’re very time crunched, they are mostly driven by the billable hours. So they feel under tremendous pressure to bill time. Nobody bothered talking to them about business development in law school, right. They taught us, they gave us a foundation in the law. So we took torts and constitutional law and contracts and all that. And then they taught us how to think like a lawyer so we can never think like a normal person again. And then they said, “well go out and you know, have great law practices, and then go be successful. Congratulations, you’re a lawyer.” And so what I do is I put business development into a structure, a simple structure that people can understand. And that kind of is the big picture view, it’s the 30,000 foot view, here’s how business development works, right? Here’s what is proven to work overtime. These are principles that stand the test of time. Having said that, for each individual lawyer, you’ve got to find a way to do it in a way that aligns with who you are, your personality, your values, your likes, and dislikes, your practice area, your geography, all of that sort of thing. And so we take it from the big picture down to, you know, the 1000 foot view, what’s going to work specifically for you. Also, habit formation is a huge thing here, right? Because lawyers are so busy. They don’t feel that they have time to go out there and learn something new and start beating the bushes for clients, as some of them put it. And so I think it’s important to help them chunk down small things that they can do consistently. To change those habits, we all know that that’s how habits work, doesn’t mean that we sign on for that. Because sometimes we get all excited about something we say, well, I’m gonna go whole hog on this, and you’ve run out of steam in three weeks. But helping them break it down into chunks so that they’re not overdoing it on a regular basis, but they are doing it on a regular basis. And that consistency. And doing it in a way that makes sense for you. And your target market is what works. 

And so I think that part of that execution piece is also the structure piece, because lawyers like both execution and structure. And so having a structure that they can put into place, and knowing they don’t have to do it all today so that they can still bill their hours and make some time for business development, I think helps. And then look, there’s the emotional side of it, right? And without getting all touchy feely for the lawyers who are, you know, cringing right now, there is this, there is the mindset piece of it. And so I think that when I say to lawyers, look, you can do this, even though you’re not currently an expert at it, you can learn something new. You are not just born as a business developer or not born as a business developer, some people are more natural than others, no question about it. But for most lawyers, if you decide that this is something you want to do, and you go through this, they go through a system and you go through the structure and you take consistent action, you can make this happen. And many lawyers like nothing better than checking off boxes, they don’t– you almost get a little dopamine burst, right, from executing on something. And so I think that knowing that about myself and how I roll and knowing that many lawyers– certainly not all– show up that way, has been helpful to me in laying it out for lawyers in a way that they can digest. And that makes sense for them. It doesn’t feel overwhelming.

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, no. Yes, yes. And yes to everything that you just said, a bell just went off in my head about lawyers being wired to be executioners. And that’s just how they’re trained in law school. And it never, it actually never dawned on me that that that is true, and that the people that are lawyers enjoy executing or enjoy doing the work because they, especially for the first seven, eight years of their career, they are doing, they’re doing all the partners’ work. Right. So I never thought of that, which also boggles my mind. But thank you for putting that so eloquently.

Elise Holtzman  

Well, I just want to point out one thing in that regard. So it’s a combination of two things, right? We self-select into law school, it’s not like somebody came to us and said, “Hey, these are the five people that are going to law school.” So people who, and let me be clear, it’s not like every lawyer is this way. But most of them are– research, not my research, but research has demonstrated that most of them, many of them are. So we self-select into law school, so we’re already kind of wired that way. And then yes, then they teach us how to be even more so that way, right? So that’s kind of what we carry with us in the beginning of our careers. And then after the first seven or eight years, there are different skills and mindsets and behaviors and habits that are required. And sometimes it can be very difficult for lawyers to make that shift. Right. And I think that’s true of everyone. Because who wakes up in the morning and says, “Okay, I want to take on a new role. Now. I want to be more of a leader. I want to be a rainmaker. So here’s what I’m going to do; everything that’s made me successful for the past 40 years, I’m just going to throw that out the window and try something different.” Nobody does that. It doesn’t work that way. So then, you know, there’s a shift that’s required. And when you’re so used to structure and when you’re used to being successful, it can be hard to make some of those shifts, but it’s 100% doable. 

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, no, totally, totally agree. I think something else that you said in your initial answer to this that I don’t know if it’s clear to people though, is that the fear of not knowing how to execute so the how, or like, the what they’re supposed to execute and how they’re supposed to get there. Sometimes it’s so paralyzing that they avoid it at all costs or they go the other side, which is that they analyze it, overanalyze it so much that now they’re now they’ve confused themselves as to what they should be doing. And you know me, I talked about this all the time, one of my favorite books and favorite thought processes is Who Not How, right, which I think is really where you come into the picture right is like, you know how to do it, you believe knows how to do it, and your team knows how to do it, you can help to cut down that learning curve, and you are the WHO that they need in order to help them to exit to become executioner’s and rainmakers. So, you know, how has the Who Not How thought process carried into the consulting that you’re doing?

Elise Holtzman  

I’m glad you raised this question, because people will raise a couple of objections for why they can’t do this, right. Lawyers have the typical objections, and obstacles that come up over and over again, and they’re real, right, they’re real for them. One of them is, of course, time, but we all have the same 24/7. It’s just a question of how we use it. One of them’s “I don’t know how to do this.” And lawyers are used to being intelligent, they’re used to being well respected for their capabilities. And so if you’re aware, and you have a choice between doing the work on your desk that you know how to do, and going out there and doing something where you feel like you’re floundering and you don’t know what you’re doing. I mean, human nature dictates that you’re going to sit there and do the work at your desk, because you feel competent, you feel capable, right? And, and nobody’s going to tell you you’re, you know, a loser, and you don’t know what you’re doing. And so I think the idea that what I can do is I can shortcut that, as you mentioned, is I can give you a structure, right? Like I have the three pillars of business development, and they all make sense to you based on the world that you occupy. It just helps people, as I said before, kind of chunk things down and have things not be so overwhelming. And so that you’re also not engaging in scattershot marketing and running around trying to do 27 different things that may or may not work, because nobody has that kind of time. Right. And so I think that that’s, that’s a big part of it is just helping people really shorten that learning curve, and then do what I like to call mini experiments, where you’re out there trying a couple things, and then seeing how it works, you’re not married to anything, right, you’re not changing gears so quickly that, you know, the wheels are gonna come off, you’re just trying some experiments, seeing what works, seeing what feels right to you, and, you know, seeing what gets you decent results, and then adjusting on that basis.

Joe Giovannoli  

You know, doing the task that’s on your desk, because you feel competent and capable, just really does lend itself to reinforce the thought that people will do the things that they are going to get positive reinforcement or, or, or, you know, that feeling of success at the end of it, where if they get into something new, they’re not sure they’re going to be successful with it. And the fear of failure gets people to not start. It’s also sometimes why, you know, people don’t start businesses, they don’t become an entrepreneur, even though they may have a good idea, but they’re afraid to fail. There’s this fear, this culture– and this is not just a legal industry thing, this is as a whole, there’s this feeling of fear of failure, right? It’s like, oh, if I fail, like, I’m not gonna be able to recover from this, or, you know, I know, for me, my failures are more important than my successes. And I think you and I’ve talked about that, my failures teach me things. My successes are great, and it’s exciting. And those are the things I get to talk about. Most people don’t talk about their failures, but they learned an awful lot from them, and they’re not going to make the same mistakes twice. Right. And that’s true. That’s true in life. That’s not even just business, but it’s true in life. 

Elise Holtzman  

I’m sorry, something you said. So I just lost my train of thought, I’m sorry, you’re gonna have to hold on a second, you said something. Oh, all of that is very powerful. Because lawyers, again, we talked about this idea of self-selecting into law school. Everyone knows that lawyers are not typically, naturally risk takers. We didn’t go to law school, because we wanted to become salespeople. We don’t typically go to law school– but there are some who know in advance that they want to start their own law firms. But we don’t typically go to law school because we want to start our own businesses, and have to worry about where the next dollar is coming from. And so again, you know, lawyers can sometimes get stuck. As you pointed out, everyone has some kind of fear of failure. I mean, we’d be crazy if we didn’t, because we’d all be jumping out of airplanes every day and jumping off the George Washington Bridge with a bungee cord attached to our ankle, that kind of thing. But it’s something to be aware of, right. I’m not critical of lawyers for this sort of thing. But I do think it’s good to have awareness and to look around and say what’s really at stake here, right? Like if I go out and do some business development, or I go speak at an event, you know, is something horrible going to happen? And sometimes people say, well, what’s the worst thing that can happen? I think that’s a horrible question. Because something horrible could happen if it was the worst thing, I think the better question is, what’s the more likely outcome here? What’s most likely to happen? And that’s usually something either neutral or pretty great.

Joe Giovannoli  

Well, I’m gonna say something, I say this all the time, and I have some– I know there’s gonna be attorneys listening that are going to be shaking their Mont Blanc pen at me and saying no, but I think that we law schools need to look at their curriculum, and either figure out a way to work in a business-related course– forget about law, but business-related course how to run a business. And I think that there needs to be some very, very tactically focused, how-to-develop-business course, I have, my best friend in the world is going through law school right now, and I asked him every, every semester, what courses he’s taking– one, because I’m so genuinely interested in what he’s going through, and I’m so excited for him, I’m so proud of him. But I’m waiting for him to tell me that his school is offering one of these courses because even if you’re not, you know, you’re never going into a law firm that you’re going to be doing this. And maybe your goal is to be general counsel somewhere, you should still understand how a business works and how a business operates. Because as you said, at the beginning of this, you want to be self sustaining, you wanna be able to hang a shingle, you never know where your life is gonna take you and you make, you may find it a niche that, you know, helps you to scratch an itch, and you’re gonna go and start a law firm. And if you don’t know how to run a business, you’re gonna run a business like a law firm. And that’s not how the rest of the world runs.

Elise Holtzman  

To your point, Joe, I mean, no matter what kind of law you practice, it is critical to understand business concepts, it’s– your clients typically have businesses. So either you’re working for a company, or you’re working for an individual that may own a company or work for a company or whatever it is. And clients want their lawyers to understand how their businesses work. And so if you have no idea what’s going on, that can be a real challenge and a steep learning curve for you. Most law schools do not have anything as–- certainly not as a required part of their curriculum, some law law schools are adding some of these courses as electives. I believe that the the fancier and shmancier the law school thinks it is, the more highly ranked they are and the more elite they think they are, the less likely they are to have this kind of course, because they tend to view the legal profession as this academic, sort of storied, you know, Country Club sort of a profession, where, you know, we’re professionals, sniff sniff, you know, we’re not a trade school. And my attitude is, you’re kind of a trade school. And I think he needs to get past it. I mean, yes, you need to train your people to do the work. But you also need to train them for the realities of the world. And my daughter is actually in law school right now. She’s a first year law student. And, you know, she has learned from me and from her father. So there’s a lot of practical conversation that happens there. But I don’t think she’s getting that in law school either. 

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, I wish that I had, well, I don’t really wish this but if I had an MBA, I would be able to go and even adjunct teaching. And I think it’s, it’s something that even if somebody somewhere at some Law School brought in someone to speak for an entire class and lecture just about business and business development. I think it would create better lawyers of tomorrow. And I don’t think we’re too far off of that. I’ve heard rumblings that there are some schools that are considering this or actually making it part of their curriculum. 

Elise Holtzman  

Some of them are coming around. Yeah, some of them are coming around. And I’ll just say one more thing, and then we can move on. But, you know, even the states that are responsible for continuing legal education and, and certifying courses for continuing legal education, many of them will not offer continuing legal education for anything that is business development related. In their view, it’s not, it doesn’t have quote, unquote, “sufficient legal content.” And so you know, lawyers will shy away from it because they’re not getting credit for it. So again, you know, I agree with that mindset, and I hope that other people start coming around more frequently.

Joe Giovannoli  

Right, you know, I totally agree. So we’re gonna take a quick break here. We just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge our sponsor for the Tip of the Law podcast, 9Sail. 9Sail is a law firm-focused digital marketing agency specializing in providing lead generation and awareness building services, such as SEO, paid search, content creation, and Digital Public Relations. Grow your firm with 9Sail. We’re coming up to the top of the episode here. You know, the name of this is the Tip of the Law, right? So it’s a play on words, but we want to leave everybody with one tip that they can bring back to their firm today and implement and actually see some sort of an impact. What’s the tip that you can leave everybody with today?

Elise Holtzman  

As an attorney, you would not expect to take somebody who had never had experience or never had any training and put them in a courtroom, or in a boardroom in front of a client to negotiate a deal to argue emotion, or to do anything else that requires legal skills. And the same way I think, it’s untenable to require lawyers or expect lawyers to go out and develop business, and to run businesses and to lead organizations without having them have any training or experience. And so there are resources out there for you to learn the skills, the behaviors, the mindsets of successful rainmakers of successful managing partners of successful leaders, you and I are involved in some of those, I run some of those myself, I partner with other people to run them. There are lots of people out there, not just me. And so I encourage anyone who’s listening to do this for yourself, and bring this concept back to your firm, to say, listen, stop expecting junior to mid level partners to suddenly show up with a robust book of business, when you’ve never mentioned to this this to them before you’ve never provided training, you’ve never provided coaching, you’ve never provided any support. You’ve never even told them that this is important. You’re capable of doing this, I don’t care who you are, what your personality type is. You need to learn the skills you need to practice, you need to get some experience and then you will see results.

Joe Giovannoli  

I could not have said that better myself. I agree with everything you just said. And always thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being a dear friend and I look forward to working with you on a few of the things we have in the pipeline. So thank you everyone for listening. We appreciate you tuning in, and tune in next time for another great episode of the Tip of the Law. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to the Tip of the Law podcast hosted by Joe Giovannoli. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe to Tip of the Law and leave us a comment wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. You’ve been listening to Tip of the Law.