Joe Giovannoli  

You’re listening to the Tip of the Law podcast where legal insights need practical advice. In each episode, we bring you stories, insights and tips straight from the legal industry’s brightest minds. I’m your host Joe Giovannoli, founder and CEO of 9Sail, and joining me today is my friend Roy Sexton. Roy is one of the most well known legal marketers in the United States. He is the Director of Marketing at Clark Hill and the immediate past president of the International Legal Marketing Association board. Roy is also the host of his own hit podcast, All the World’s Your Stage. Roy is the legal marketer’s legal marketer, I am so excited to introduce him to you all. Without further ado, let’s get to it. Roy, how’s it going? Thanks for joining me today. 

Roy Sexton  

Good, thank you. And thanks for all you do for our community. You’ve done such a wonderful job connecting what we do with new audiences and featuring so many of our communities and you’re just a really decent human being, which is my Midwestern compliment I can offer.

Joe Giovannoli  

Well, thank you so much. That’s high praise. I really appreciate it. I’ve been looking forward to having you on since you accepted my invitation. You were on my top five list of people I really wanted to have on this podcast. So thank you.

Roy Sexton  

You might live in regret of that. But thank you. 

Joe Giovannoli  

I’ve listened to your podcast and I know we’re in for a great conversation. So yeah, listen, I’m a big fan. I’m a big fan.

Roy Sexton  

You’re very kind depends on how caffeinated I am on any given day. 

Joe Giovannoli  

That’s okay. I’m sure. Based on our conversation for this. I’m sure it’s just fine. Thank you. So let’s, let’s start out the way we always start these out. Can you tell me one interesting fact about yourself that people may not know?

Roy Sexton  

Yeah, um, where to begin. So my mother was, I don’t know if you ever saw the movie, The Prize Winner of Defiance, Ohio with Julianne Moore, and she enters every contest that ever comes to the house front door. My mother was like that. And I was an only child. So I got a lot of attention. And she was an English teacher. And I’m really grateful. She taught me how to write and to speak. I mean, I had wonderful teachers in school. But when I got home, it continued. And as a child, there was something called the PTA reflections contest. It was art, music and writing. And I almost lived in fear anytime I brought home something to the principal that there was a contest because she’s like, wow. And it was always now I can say this at 51. It was always a collective activity. You know, they always were like, “Could you write this yourself,” and I’m like “I did,” but my parents were artistic. So, three years in a row, I won the national writing competition for PTA Reflections, which was, as a child you don’t quite understand, that’s kind of a big deal. And I heard Ronald Reagan speak. I went to the international conference one year in New Mexico and read my story. And it was just, you know, the first year you went to international, you got a set of childcraft encyclopedias. The second year, they give you Encyclopedia Britannica. And then I got another set of Encyclopedia Britannica that I still have, my dad has one set, I had one set of the child crap, all terribly dated, but I still look at those and I go with that kind of got me off on the right foot, to learn how to communicate, connect with people. And also don’t hide your light under a bushel, I mean, put yourself out there, and if you win an award, and you know, my mom was kind of a PR agent for me at seven. So you know, the local newspaper would cover it, the local CBS affiliate had me do public service announcements as a child about how to walk on the sidewalk and stuff. And it was, I got picked on a lot in school for that, which probably explains a lot about me now. But you know, I’m really grateful for that foundation that she gave me and I think it served me well.

Joe Giovannoli  

That’s amazing. That’s amazing. And, and you know, those experiences they built, they built amazing character, and they really helped you to get set on that right foot. And that’s, that’s just amazing. And, I could share something similar, you know, I shared with you a couple years ago, I had lost my father and he was that for me, like, he was always my hype guy, no matter what it was that I was doing. Like, he was just he was my, “hey, I’m really proud of my son, he’s doing this” and “my son, you know, you could do whatever you want to do, and you’re gonna do really well.” So it’s so great to grow up in an atmosphere like that. I could speak from my own experience.

Roy Sexton  

So it is the best, isn’t it? I mean, you really– and I that I love hearing that about your dad because it does help me understand and appreciate you that much more because I will say you know, my limited you know, we’ve gotten to know each other last couple years but what I know of you, you honor his legacy very well because you do that for all of us and you do that for the people in your midst. And I think your success as a business person comes from that generosity of spirit and I do you know, I hate people who use cliches. But when people say, “live in abundance, not scarcity,” they’re right. It doesn’t take anything to say something kind and supportive about someone else. And you don’t have to do it in a false or phony way. Right? It really puts wind in their sails. And I got that. And it has helped me through tough times. Because I had that for my parents and had a strong foundation to try things. And to know that not everything’s going to be a big success, but enough things will be and that momentum carries. So kudos to your father. Kudos to my mother and my dad. But I’m, I’m glad that you’re in this world. And I’m glad that you had a father like that. You deserve that.

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And likewise. Wow, that got deep real fast. No, it’s great. Three hours later? Yeah. Three hours later. Yeah, two cups of coffee. So I want to– and we’ve talked about this, you’ve, you’ve heard a little bit about the podcast, I do want to, I do want to pivot a little bit here. And I want to talk a little bit about legal marketing. Right. Yeah. You know, I meant when I said in the intro, you are one of the legal marketer’s legal marketer, like you are the person that a lot of people look to for guidance and support. And I’ve spoken to and interviewed a number of people on this podcast that your name comes up organically, you know, through their conversations about a mentor and somebody that they love and respect. And I want to know, how you decided to get into legal marketing because one doesn’t just stumble into this.

Roy Sexton  

But I did. You know, this is becoming a therapy session, you’re just that accommodating. You know, I, I, again, my mother being my mother, we didn’t have a lot of money. So this is not– this will get where it’s going, I promise. When it came to college, there was no money to draw upon for me to go to college. So again, any scholarship application that came through, it didn’t matter where it was, we were filling those out, she was a machine. And she used to joke with my father because she didn’t work consistently outside the home. But she ended up helping me get like four or five full ride scholarships to different schools. And she said, “Look, I might not have worked for the 18 years I’ve always been on this earth, but I just earned like $400,000.” So you know, metaphorically speaking, so I, you know, I didn’t have that pressure necessarily that I should have probably had of wanting to go to college. What will I be when I grow up? It was just, it was paid for. I went to a small all male college, Wabash College in Indiana, I joined a fraternity, which I didn’t think I would have done and just loved– it was like Dead Poets Society, it was that kind of campus. It belonged in a snow globe. So I just studied what I liked. And that ended up being English and theater, that no one said, you have to get a job. So after four years, I was like, oh, and I hit the snooze alarm. I got a master’s in theater because why not. And then I realized I need to eat and then went back to the college and worked, and ended up talking my way into a job at Deloitte Consulting that I was not qualified to have that led to about a decade in healthcare, doing strategic planning and marketing. Again, I had no plan for myself, I still don’t. I just sort of reacted and responded to the opportunities before me. 

And I think that that interest in narrative from English and theatre benefited me even in the healthcare system. I didn’t know what they were talking about half the time, but I knew they weren’t speaking to each other. And so I was able to say, how are we messaging to the board? How are we positioning this organization? I got my MBA at some point during that time, because my husband is a pragmatic one and said, you should get an MBA if you ever want another job. And when I got the MBA, that’s when they said, “why don’t you take over marketing?” I was doing strategic planning, in healthcare facilities and patient physician satisfaction, things like that, and a lot of market studies. And so marketing was part of our division, took that over. And I’d had one marketing class in my MBA and my boss said, but you have a nice strategic consulting mindset, bring that to marketing. So that’s how I got into marketing. And I did that for another four or five years, kind of got a belly full of healthcare and just said, Well, let me put my resume out there. And a local mortgage foreclosure firm that I didn’t realize was kind of doing the devil’s work. I, they wanted a VP of marketing. I’m like, That sounds fun. And Dave Trott was running for Congress. I’m gonna get into politics. I’m a liberal Democrat from Ann Arbor. He was the Republican foreclosure king of Southeast Michigan, and we worked together, he made it to Congress, I got to see how that worked. But that’s when I joined the Legal Marketing Association, because I thought naively, oh, doctors, lawyers, I got this and then I realized, no, this business model is very different. The personalities are very different. And I’ll say at the late stage of my life that I was nearing 40 at the time. The Legal Marketing Association gave me that sense of purpose and career and I finally realized all the threads of my life came together. I’m good with attorneys. I know how to help them find their voice and sell themselves, which is really what good legal marketers do, or we tried to do. So to your point about people having things to say about me. The first couple years I went to LMA annual conferences, I was just nervous. I had wonderful mentors in the firm. I’m in my third firm now, Clark Hill. I went from Mortgage Foreclosure to a small white shoe firm to now an AmLaw 200 firm with 27 offices, and 715 attorneys. So I’m doing something okay. But it always comes back. Well, and it always comes back to the people in my life who have been kind to me and I tried to reciprocate that. So the first couple of conferences I went to I was very shy. People don’t believe that I hid behind potted plants and you know, what? I didn’t socialize. And I was always lurking around.

Joe Giovannoli

I can’t see that, Roy. 

Roy Sexton

I’ve always been a gregarious person, but the only child in me, the introvert, when I’m in a large crowd, especially a large crowd of extroverted people, I’m like, they don’t want me at the lunch table. I just might get in my head like, I don’t belong here. And I’ve learned the hard way that it’s not true. If you do belong or ever you want to belong. But that was taught to me because I’m lurking around the pool in Orlando, whatever year that was now 2013, and maybe Gina Rubel saw me and said, “come over here.” Just very nice. And I met Nancy Merlin and Heather Morse, Laura Toledo. Lindsey Griffiths, and I got to sit with them for a while and they said, We’re doing live tweet-ups back then. That’s how long ago it was. And I sat with them at the table. I’m like, this is fun. I don’t know what we’re doing. But yeah. And they were coming to me and showed me the ropes. And then I just have modeled my behavior on that. So if there are people who’ve had nice things to say about me, those wonderful women get the credit, because they sort of taught me, this is a wonderful giving open community even as competitive as law is, people look out for each other, it opened something up in me that I was like, Well, yeah, I like that. I like helping people be their best selves. And so I’m, I’m gratified. That’s why I’m going on and on and on and on that to hear you say that people have said that somehow I’ve made a difference, because that’s what I received, you know, over 10 years ago.

Joe Giovannoli  

And that’s what the Legal Marketing Association is, what the legal industry for what I’ve been able to tell in the marketing space is all about, you know, I find that people are very willing and open to having conversations, and I come at it from a from a, what would be a vendor perspective, right? Like, there’s a lot of a lot of industries, and I’ve worked in a number of industries, a lot of industries, people will just not even not answer you or shut you out or whatever. And, I find that legal marketers are always very interested in, intrigued in the end, you know, don’t burn bridges, you know, meet, meet, meet, meet with people see what you can learn from them. And vice versa.

Roy Sexton  

And we’re all doing versions of the same thing. We’re all selling something. I’m selling attorneys, you’re selling 9Sail, there’s no shame in that– we are marketers, so we don’t need to get weird about that. Now. You’re right, I was in a professional association, when I was doing healthcare, strategic planning. And that was different. And the service providers were out in the hallway, literally, at their tables, and they couldn’t come into our business meeting. And so when I joined the Legal Marketing Association, and it was an equal membership, there wasn’t a diversified membership fee, everyone gets the same opportunity. And you also see a lot of in house marketers ended up at some point becoming service providers, and some service providers go back in house. And I do think that’s unusual. And a good thing, a healthy thing, because many of those women I just described, they were all service providers for the most part, or maybe half of them. And I learned so much from those folks who– I didn’t hire them, they just were willing to share with me what they knew of the business. And my second role, when I had a different role at a different firm, I did have the opportunity to hire different service providers. And I did reach out to those people that had talked to me around the pool or had coffee with me, because I knew them and I felt comfortable with them. That’s a long cycle lead time. But you know, three or four years later, I was in a position to hire folks. And I called the ones not that had done any favors or taken any fancy dinners, but that had actually taken time to take me under their wing. 

Joe Giovannoli  

Yep, absolutely. And I think that that’s one of the biggest mistakes that people make is that they, you know, they think that they have to have grand gestures in order to get people to like them. And the reality is like, if you just share information, have a conversation and compare notes. Those are the people you remember the most.

Roy Sexton  

And honestly, grand gestures have the opposite effect on me. We had a service provider we were using at Clark Hill that we were having trouble with. They’re not in the LMA circle anyway. And they may, I don’t know if they picked up on that or not, but they sent me this beautiful coffee table book about Hamilton, which is one of the best gifts I’ve ever gotten from anybody. It’s like, oh, you get me, I like theater. This is a beautiful book. We let them go the next day. You know, I thank you for the book, but we were already– what you do is not helping us so they didn’t take the time to learn us or respond to our business needs so you can buy me a beautiful book, and I appreciate it and we’ll keep it but it’s not going to equate.

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, it doesn’t equate. It doesn’t equate to the business or the relationship. It’s, you really have oh, you know, prove value and yeah, yep, I’m with you there 100% love that. So people can’t tell because this is you know obviously being shot without any video. But you have–

Roy Sexton  

I dressed up for you. I dressed up for you. I don’t have on basketball shorts. I put on a nice shirt and a jacket. And yeah, I had my, my ring light on and everything and then you’re like, Dude, we’re not. I was like, oh, jackets off.

Joe Giovannoli  

Be comfortable. That’s, that’s, that’s the name of this. But you have superhero memorabilia all around you. I love it. That was actually one of the first things that you and I bonded over is our love for Marvel. So leading into that I believe everyone has a superpower. And some people may not see it that way. Most of the people that I’ve asked this question don’t see it as a superpower. But I certainly do. I’d like to know what you think your superpower is and why?

Roy Sexton  

Well and it’s lovely to be asked. I think we’re– I don’t know if it’s the American way or what, as a culture, we’re so– we hype ourselves but then we get self conscious that we’re talking about ourselves too much. It’s the weirdest cycle we do as Americans, but I like the question. I appreciate it not just for the superhero piece and and on as a side note, part of you know, one, I’ve heard people say you should have a plain background. And I’m like, No, when I have stuff behind me that draws people in and I’ll have attorneys say I need this digital background, and that’s just a Clark Hill logo that’s more professional, and like, no! Let people see your office, let them see the bookshelf because you’re going to be drawn in. The pandemic changed the way we all were kind of wired that way anyway, we might have a button or a little flair, a paperweight or something but people are more comfortable sharing that part of their personal lives. It draws people in, it creates a connection point. So don’t hide, you know, and you’re right. They can’t see this at home. But there’s a Thanos gauntlet, a Thor hammer, a Captain America shield, a Boba Fett print, all this stuff is behind me. And it looks like I’m cuckoo. But I don’t care and it draws people in. 

But to your question about superpower, I, you were kind enough to give me a bit of lead time on that. So I did think about it a bit. And I think– I hope– and it relates to what we were just talking about helping people feel seen. And helping them find their own superpowers, quite frankly, being that that lens and connecting it to that. And I learned this, I think, especially last year being Legal Marketing Association president but it was always kind of in my ordinary way. I don’t let bureaucracy or precedent or what other people might think hold me back from that. Because I found that a few times last year I’d be kind of celebrating or doing something and someone that was very mired in policies and procedures or was worried that we were setting a precedent and I hate that. If we do for one we have to do for all: No, you don’t. And I just went ahead and did whatever I wanted to do anyway. I mean, if somebody needed to be celebrated or honored, I did it. And I’m glad of that. And it sort of gave me the courage of my convictions. Because I think to your point, you’re hearing from people that maybe got some benefit from that. You know, I’ll pick on Jacob Eidinger, because I know you have spoken with him and he didn’t need me to help him find his voice or superpower, he already had it. He’s a wonderful connector. I admire how polished he is and eloquent, and how he can get to the point without 83 sentences like I am or I do. But also I could tell he just wanted someone to be able to talk to him about his career and where he was going and what he wanted, and what he hoped to get from LMA and that’s our conversation. I’m not going to share that here. But I don’t think he realized I’ve benefited from that as much as he might have benefited from me speaking with him. Because I’m always learning something from the people that I speak with. And it has benefited me as a legal marker as well, sitting down with an attorney who might have their defenses up about “why is this marketing person here” and getting them to the point of feeling comfortable that they really share with me what do you love to do? You’re a writer, you’re a speaker, you’re a socializer. Okay, well let’s find the tools that will make you succeed with who you are. The worst thing you can do is sort of force a job description on somebody that they’re not comfortable with because they’re never going to be successful at it. So you have to find out, where are you comfortable? You know, what do you do well, and now let’s build a marketing strategy around that, let’s build a career strategy around that, let’s build a volunteer strategy around that. So yeah, I guess again, these answers are not concise but that’s where I’m getting out on that one.

Joe Giovannoli  

No, no, absolutely. And I totally agree with you and I, one thing that I really resonates with me and and I remember vividly is during your presidency anytime there was a committee that put on an event you were you made a very large nice post personally calling out every single person that was involved in the planning of it and something that I had not seen previously done that I thought was an amazing touch. And it did, it helped the people that, you know, even if they contributed a few hours of their time into volunteering to help set this up, they got the recognition they deserve, because it was time they took out of their day to do this. And you did that so well. So I want to thank you and agree with that.

Roy Sexton  

People don’t need to do this stuff, they have families, they’ve got lives. And you know, there’s an altruistic element to it, because I’ve been on the other side of that, and you’re, you know, been in theater on boards and things and you’re standing there thinking someone’s gonna go, thank you for the part you played, and they just stay in there, collecting all the Hosannas for themself. And that makes me sound very vain. But you always feel a bit like why did I put my effort into this, and I might not put much effort into that anymore. So that’s the selfish side of it too. Or as a leader, I want people to keep in it, you know, to stick with it to become international president themselves some day or regional or whatever to to feel seen. And then the third leg of that stool is I’ve been on the other side of it. And sometimes I am still where your day job is asking, “Why are you doing all of this? What is the point? Are you looking for a new job, are you,” you know, and I think lawyers, I love you lawyers. Sometimes they don’t, they themselves will go off to conferences and development opportunities, and they get that for themselves. But they don’t understand why the people who didn’t go to law school need that too. And that by giving them the wind in their sails, and letting them have those moments of leadership that actually benefits the organization, because they’re testing out new skills and opportunities. They’re also spreading the name of the firm. So I also realized by tagging those folks and putting the post out there, the chances were their own firms saw that what they were doing had validity within the larger profession. And it had visibility. So you know, that was, there was a little strategy behind that, too. 

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, well, and I think it definitely had its desired impact. You know, and I love the saying that good leaders will take the heat when something goes wrong, and good leaders will step aside to let their team have the praise when something goes right. And I think you very much live that.

Roy Sexton  

I’ve always tried to do that. I’ll say that to my own team that if a version of that is: if you ask me for some advice, and I give it to you, and it works, you get all the credit for that. If you ignore my advice, and it works, I will still support you. If you ignore my advice, and it doesn’t work. I’m not going to blame you. But I’m going to gently say, Well, next time let’s try, you know, you can do it this way. Yeah, you know, but you gotta let there’s a I had a wonderful conversation with Casey Fleming who is in well-being as a coach and executive, going to be a guest on the thing that you mentioned earlier that I’m doing. And she wrote an article about really keeping people engaged. And one of the things she talked about as people respond, we’ve heard people respond to knowing they’re adding, they’re making a contribution. They’re adding to sort of forward momentum. But she also said people respond to autonomy. They respond to a feeling of trust. And I think that’s embedded in everything we’re talking about as well. It’s like, I don’t need to, I didn’t need to micromanage with volunteers or doing an LMA. I don’t need to micromanage what my team is doing. Put the guardrails up and the signposts and let them find their own way to get there. And they’re going to surprise you with things that you wouldn’t have thought of yourself. But if you try to control every moment of everything they do, you’re limiting the power of the team. 

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, yeah, no, I totally, totally agree. So we’re going to take a quick break here. We just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge our sponsor for the Tip of the Law podcast, 9Sail. 9Sail is a law firm-focused digital marketing agency specializing in providing lead generation and awareness building services, such as SEO, paid search, content creation and Digital Public Relations. Grow your firm with 9Sail. 

So Roy, I want to talk a little bit about a hot topic that I think you and I have similar perspectives and opinions on. We got into a conversation when we were planning for the webinar. I have opinions. So this is a good one because we happen to agree on this opinion. But we started talking about content and we realized how big of a topic it really was, but how misguided content is in the industry these days. So can we talk a little bit about the state of content and legal marketing and what your take is on it?

Roy Sexton  

Yeah, and I think all marketers have to remind themselves, why are you doing what you’re doing to collect a salary? You’re doing it to connect to an audience that is going to spend money with you. It’s what marketers are there to do, first and foremost. Now that all gets mixed up in any organization like law firms, it seems worse. Because we always get mired in the politics of the egos and the people internally. And then people start making decisions based on whoever’s most important within the organization versus thinking as a marketing strategist and saying, Well, who outside, I need to care more about the people outside the organization, and bring the people inside the organization to Front of House so they are in their best light. But we let those people get too in the weeds of this stuff, and end up making decisions that aren’t necessarily in the best interest of them or the organization because we want to preserve our jobs. We want to preserve our promotion or bonus, whatever. So that’s my toxic commentary. The game of telephone is important, because I’m like, how did we get where we are now? Which I don’t think a lot of– I see a lot of legal marketers, and they don’t seem to ever– how did we get where we are now? They don’t know what I’m talking about, they just want to talk about the next shiny thing. It’s blockchain. It’s AI. It’s NFTs. It’s Internet of Things every year. It’s a new thing. They’re all obsessed about it. I’m like, Well, where were we before we got to this point. So content’s an interesting conundrum. Because before the pandemic, I felt like we were shouting into the wind about content because all the attorneys wanted to sponsor golf outings and boat shows and rodeos and golf balls. And they wanted to, to our point, they wanted to woo people with nice gifts and throw money around, which if I’m on the client side, I’m like, what, I’ve got my own money, and why do you have this money to throw around? I mean, it begs the question of, am I paying you too much if you can host me at football stadiums, that thing. So the pandemic changed all that, because suddenly, that stuff was not available to people. And for a brief shining moment, they were listening to us. And now I feel like it’s gotten out of hand, much like rodeos and we’re getting, you know, something works once and then we’re going to do it 83000 times, and now content– it’s almost the perfect storm ever. It’s it’s keeping people satisfied internally, politically, it’s showing that we’re doing a lot of stuff, we understand that with the changes in search engines and more content we have out there, the better off we’re gonna be whenever Google changes, whatever they’re changing, you know, but it’s too much. And it’s not thoughtfully done. At this point. It’s like, just throw as much out there as you can. And the attorneys are now the ones driving that, they were listening to the marketers 2020, 2021. And now they’re like, why isn’t this on LinkedIn? Why are you posting that? I wrote an article, I did this, I did 83 things. And we’re starting to say, well put that on your own LinkedIn. Well, why is that not on the firm page? Because it doesn’t have to be right, you know, we can give you the tools.

Joe Giovannoli  

We can’t do that. 700 times.

Roy Sexton  

Right! And it’s not going to reach– you grow your network, and you share stuff, they’re more likely to pay attention to it from you, don’t get shy again. It’s the same point I see in community theater because they want to be out there until you ask them to be out there. And then you get shy. Well, I don’t want to post that. Why not? You wrote it. You want people to know about it. Suddenly you feel funny about posting it? I don’t– that will never, you can tell with me, I have no problem going both both both. So I think what we are in now. And I like where we are because we created the content engine, we got the firm excited about generating content, I’m lucky, I don’t really have the problem I just described, I have attorneys that are collaborative and willing to work. It’s a nice environment. They’re interested in connecting with us. They don’t make those demands, but I see other people under the gun in that way. But we’re starting to look more curated at what we’re putting out there and saying, is this fully authored by us? Is it something that we took the time, half of our business development people worked with the attorney and determined this as a priority area, that’s what we put our marketing behind. So when we put content out there, we know, it’s actually content that people will find valuable. And we try to mix the delivery mode. It’s not all written or all video. And we do throw in the occasional external webinar, because we’re like, that’s got gravitas, but we’ve earned the credibility within our organization to be able to stake that claim and say to the attorney, love what you’re doing, feel free to put it on your LinkedIn. But we’re going to post this thing from the New York Times today, comparatively speaking, a little more substantive than the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce. We’ve gotten there where we can have that conversation, I think the other thing we have to do is show that data, use the data. We use a platform to do our distribution of social content which gives us great data. So we’re able to then go back and say, Hey, if you look at the six posts to get the most response, here’s what the audience is responding to: what you just sent to us really doesn’t fit that. So we’re not going to include it. So you have a sensible conversation, a strategic conversation. And so people probably lost me 700 words ago, but I feel like we’ve gotten people to a point where they’re willing to generate content and play with us. Now we have to pull back and be thoughtful and targeted about what you’re putting out there because honestly, it’s just so much noise. Right now LinkedIn has still kept it’s– for the most part there, people on my LinkedIn, I’m like, what, and I’m one I post pictures of my dogs and stuff, but mostly as a palate cleanser, because I’m like, everybody’s out there, even with a short form. Today, I saw a snowflake, and it taught me how to be kind to my elders. And I’m like, Oh, God, there’s one of those posts, there’s the video of someone going, I’m going to tell you how to game the algorithm. Stop trying to game the algorithm, just connect with people in the way they can. So I’ll put kind of random soft stuff in there. Because I know people need a mental break from all the Who Moved My Cheese content. And, but when you’re working with your firm, start to think like advertisers think in a campaign format and go, what are our priority practice areas this quarter, to frame your content or out that do the best you can to do an editorial calendar, we’ve tried and failed and tried and failed, because at the same time, you’re just reacting and responding to what’s coming in the door, I get that. But at least what you have in your control, we do Q&A, we do video, we do alerts where you can shape the content, do that, and make that a steady drumbeat for two or three months, and the recipients will go oh, they do cyber really well at Clark Hill, I’ve seen enough posts about that. I might not have read all of them. But I’ve seen enough that I know that they do versus everything under the sun, because you’re trying to keep everybody happy in your organization. So I don’t know, that was a lot. 

Joe Giovannoli  

No, no. And there’s, there’s a lot, no, there’s a lot to there’s a lot for me to shoot out there too. So, you know, we are constantly talking to firms and and you know, what you just talked about and what my company does really goes hand in hand, right. And we’re, we’re either fighting two battles, we have some companies that are just generating content all over the place just to generate content. And there is no focus and we have to get them focused, or at least get them to agree that they’re going to give us X number of pieces of content that are focused, or we have the firm’s that are still not writing or still not seeing the value or not prioritizing it. But no matter what, whoever we talk to, we’re always saying, hey, on an attorney level, there’s no reason why your attorney shouldn’t be publishing bits and pieces of content on their own profile, because they need to be a subject matter expert. Right. And subject matter expertise, I think is something that many people grasp, and they understand, but not many people execute well, which lends itself to your campaign mindset, right? It’s like, hey, if the firm really wants to grow in this, I’m gonna use cyber, because you just said it. The firm really wants to grow the cyber practice this year. And that’s like one of the core focuses and core tenets of the firm. Anybody that’s in the cyber practice should be, you know, sharing content and posting, the firm should be trying to get some PR placements that they can share on their, on their LinkedIn profiles and on their website. But you know, you need to signal to the buyer or the you know, legal consumer, you need to signal to them that this is an area that you’re an expert in, though you can’t say that dirty word. But you’re an expert in. And, you know, you don’t need to do that with 50,000 pieces of content just because you saw a butterfly today. Right? Right. You need to focus on a few hard hitting things that are either timely or they’re evergreen, that answers a lot of questions for people that people commonly have, which goes back to your FAQs. And I feel like we are at that place. And I’m glad to hear from your perspective that it feels like you have a bit of a handle on this. There are many firms that we talked to that don’t have a handle on this, and now they’re being thrown content, like it’s nobody’s business, and they’re just doing whatever, right, whatever they want to do.

Roy Sexton  

And you know, and this is no slight to our profession, a lot of people have ended up in roles like mine, you know, I guess had one marketing class. So I mean, I picked up what I picked up just because they’re interested in it. And I’ve done my own self study and the Legal Marketing Association’s helped me but you know, there are three key principles that law firms fail over and over with repetition, focus, and quality. Quality is, one could argue there’s a lot of quality content coming out of firms so but you have to have the focus and the repetition around that quality and make it stick and I’ll see we even fall prey to that we’ll post something once. And the team will go we posted that already, and I’ll go once. How many Avengers ads did you see when that movie was coming out? I mean, people need– if it’s good, and that’s your video content. If people are feeling a little shy, like well, I posted that once I shouldn’t post it again, they’re not so shy about video, they’ll post that like 83 times because they’re tickled if they’re in a video, but stuff goes by so quickly and you don’t catch it all. So you gotta have some repetition. And if you’re uncomfortable posting the exact same content, then to your point it should be that’s where the focus piece comes in. And sometimes the fact that we can’t use the word expert or expertise almost could serve us better because it forces you to do what all good marketers are. You can’t just declare you’re an expert. You have to exemplify it. And so if you do that with focus, pick cyber and repeat it. Maybe the same piece of content repeated, or it’s four or five people talking about the same kind of comparable or complementary issues. And they’re doing that in a short span of time. And it’s good stuff. That’s what a campaign is, folks. And these channels are there to use in that way. But the tail can’t wag the dog, marketing has to step in, break a few eggs, run the risk of running afoul of the executive committee or somebody because one of those attorneys gets mad that you’re not focusing on whatever it is this quarter. But that’s where you have to have alignment with your executive team leadership team. Other industries do this, I mean, Nike, Disney, they’re not just saying, marketing, good luck. We have no priorities, advertise everything in the Disney empire. No, they’re like, these movies are where we put the biggest investment, these theme parks, we put the biggest investment, this is where advertising dollars are going. And anything else will get lifted up by that law firms need to take a cue from that they can’t continue to just please everybody in the firm by by throwing marketing at them, which I think a lot of firms do, because they’re afraid to upset somebody with a decent book of business by saying no, but again, you’re diluting your brand and your message by saying yes to everybody.

Joe Giovannoli  

And don’t even get me started on “all practice groups are not created equal.” I am a big believer that firms really do need to assess where like you just said, using the Disney references that is perfect. You need to figure out where your money’s coming from, and where you’re betting your best opportunity at making money from certain campaigns. And that’s where your dollars go. And it’s not personal, it’s business. And we and we move on from that. 

Roy Sexton  

And use that as an incentive to bring the other practices along. Yeah, that’s what they also don’t want to do. They’re so afraid sometimes of having the conflict upfront, but you said is the carrot, like, well, you know, cyber’s getting the money right now. Because we see the opportunity, they’re also bringing money in the door. If you want that same treatment, put your business plan together, and then we’ll talk, you know, and that did benefit me from working in healthcare for a decade because we did look at that. I mean, it’s gonna sound like anathema to people who were like, Don’t doctors take care of everybody? Yeah. But they look at at that time, open heart surgery, I can’t remember what they were doing, orthopedics. Those are the things that had high margins based on the reimbursement. So we put our advertising on those things. And we assumed, if you thought we did open heart surgery well and could replace your knee and do these other things. When you got stitches, you’d still think of us.

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, for the attorneys that do podcasting, just as like a little sidebar, here, they are, maybe they are on a podcast, or maybe they have a podcast, or maybe they were a guest on a webinar. There are so many very easy tools out there for them to get auto generated clips from that content that they can share over and over again to enjoy enticing and treat people. Right. And that doesn’t take much effort. But hey, that’s the campaign mindset.

Roy Sexton  

Everybody thinks they’re Terry Gross, because he started a podcast, like no one wants to listen to stuff, right? No, it’s true. You gotta, you gotta let them promote the crap out of it. And that’s where I get in trouble. I’ve gotten that feedback. There’s too much of me out there. Sometimes I’m like, Well, if someone’s kind enough to have me on a podcast, part of the unspoken reciprocity is that I need to share that and tag that. So good podcasters think about it, you know, hear attorneys say, well, I need to sponsor this golf outing, because my work is about relationships. And that gives me quality time with people, that gives you time with the same four people you’ve known for 20 years, for an afternoon of golf. Yeah, but a podcast. You pick the right person that you want to get to know better, you’re doing it with me. I feel gratified, my ego is thrilled that you’re having me on. You came up with a really lovely intro that made me feel very special. I’m gonna love you for the rest of my life. I’m going to share this to make a big deal about it, you’re going to do a few clips about it. No one, even if they don’t listen to the whole hour, they’ll go well that 10 seconds was fun, I got a flavor of that, or you know what, I want to listen to that. But our concentric circles of influence now are bumping up against each other, we’re going to help each other out. We’re developing a relationship while we’re doing this, people might get something out of the education of it, they’ll know we’re connected, that creates brand awareness. And then you’ll rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, and then 9Sail will be one of those things. It’s top of mind for people. Again, if you’re going to do a podcast, don’t get shy and weird about it. Think about who are your guests strategically? Maybe they’re a fun talk. Maybe they’re fun chat. Maybe they got a great following. Maybe you want to develop business with them, maybe all of the above. And then make a big deal that you had them on. Don’t just record it and go, well, it’s out there, I hope people find it.

Joe Giovannoli  

Yeah, no, it’s too much. Really. Yeah. And you know, I can’t even say for this, for this podcast, right. So for my first 20 guests, there are people I know like and trust, right. I know I’m gonna have a good conversation with you every time I talk and this one just happens to be recorded. So you know, I agree with all of that, Roy, we’re at the top of the episode here. I want to ask the final thing, right and–

Roy Sexton

Oops!

Joe Giovannoli

No, not oops at all, this is this has been a great conversation.

Roy Sexton  

We did, we got through all the questions, we did good! Yeah, that’s a good host, especially with Robin Williams here. You’re like, we got one question. What is it? 

Joe Giovannoli  

So the name of the podcast is Tip of the Law. All right. So it’s a play on words. But we want to leave everybody with one tip that they can bring back to their law firm today and actually make an impact. What’s one tip you’d like to leave our audience with?

Roy Sexton  

This is gonna send really low rent. But I think it’s important. Find a way on a weekly basis to send back to the firm some kind of summation or digest of what the marketing activities of the week before work, and not in a dry, “we sent out 12 alerts and–” no, send them a link, share a couple of the social media pieces, share a few– it doesn’t have to be everything. Because every firm– I’ve had it at three different firms, every one I come into the first thing I hear is “marketing is not doing anything, our name’s not out there.” So I set up a Google alert on the firm’s name. And then suddenly, I see there are like 1520 things every week that I had nothing to do with. And initially, I just started packaging that stuff up, putting it out on social media and sending it back to the firm. And suddenly, they’re like, Wow, our name is out there. And like it was just no one had bothered to consolidate it in one place. And you’re all too self important to know what anybody else is doing. God loves you. Appreciate that about you. So and then over time, you start to– the spirit competition kicks in, can you send around that weekly, whatever you want to call it– digest newsletter– and there are now automated ways of creating this, our social media thing creates a weekly every Wednesday digest, so I don’t have to even think about it. But then they start to go, why am I not in this list? I did something I’m not included here. I’m like, well tell me more. And that’s, that’s the corollary to this. Because a lot of it, a lot of marketers are like, will I be able to keep up, they always worry if I start something, I won’t be able to keep up with it. Don’t worry about that, you’ll figure it out, it will get easier. The more you tell, the more you will get, the more you get, the more you have something to do with and over time, you’re building your credibility, you’re building your ability to influence because you’re satisfying all of their individual needs. And then the patterns start to emerge. And you can start to reshape them where they need to go. But my pro tip is wherever if you’re starting, it’s very unique to if you’re starting a new firm, and you’re in some kind of marketing lead role, create some kind of consolidated report back to the organization. That runs antithetical to my “don’t be so internally focused” thing. But that gives you the cover to start thinking externally, because you do quiet that noise, that nuisance noise of “we don’t like the logo, oh, we don’t like that.” So nobody does anything. What do all you people do all day? Well, I’m telling you every week, this is what we do– you want to be part of it. Tell me what you’re doing. 

Joe Giovannoli  

That’s great. That is such an amazing tip. I wrote it down because I think that there’s things that I can learn internally, for even us that’s not even just law firm focus, but anybody who’s a marketer, so Roy, thank you for that. 

Roy Sexton  

Can I say one other thing? One other thing that to explain a little more– he’s like, “No, we’re done.” No, no, it’s really the principle of, it’s not doing something to placate the internal audience or preserve your own skin. It’s about availing yourself of an audience to market to that is the most friendly audience you will find. You don’t–you gotta market to the internal audience to keep them aware of what’s going on. But don’t let it hold you back. Don’t let them determine completely what you’re putting out there. But just reminding them this work is happening and getting them to participate in it. That’s really the point of that. And I just wanted to clarify because it could easily fall into the politics of the thing versus this is another place you need to market to and it’s and it’s not just the attorneys, it’s your legal assistants, it’s your receptionist, it’s your finance people, all of them need to know what’s going on. 

Joe Giovannoli  

Thank you for that addition. Of course in the age old saying of “people work with people they know, like, and trust,” right? So you have to market to your internal team so that they know you, they like you, and they trust you, and if they know you, like you, trust you and you ask them to do something, you’re likely to do so. Roy, thank you for that. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being a dear friend. Looking forward to anytime you want to come back on the podcast you have something else you want to talk about. Let’s do it, you have an open invite, And for our audience. Thank you so much for listening in. And stay tuned for the next episode next week. Have a great day. Thank you for tuning in to Tip of the Law podcast hosted by Joe Giovannoli. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe to Tip of the Law and leave us a comment wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. You’ve been listening to Tip of the Law.